The most Bizarre test in history? 11-man Wallabies hold out against Bok comeback

0:02 Talking Boks, proudly driven by Toyota. >> When there's tough to be done, there's the new generation Hilux. >> This is Talking Boks, proudly brought to you, proudly driven by Toyota. Uh, we're

0:17 back. It's Sunday afternoon. Uh, we've just watched probably, guys, the most um bizarre test match I've watched in a long time. With me as always is Nick Mallet and Gavin Rich. We're doing this straight after the game, so this is very

0:28 fresh in our minds. We had a a a very disjointed 60-minute pre uh uh performance by the Springboks. They looked as if they were heading for the worst defeat in Rassie's era. 427 would have been at that point at 60 points

0:42 would have been the worst defeat. And then suddenly came on four yellow cards. Um a host of things to talk about. So Nick, I think let's start with you just let's start with just general impressions the game. Have you ever seen

0:55 a game like that of international rugby? Yeah, I I I was trying to I was trying to ask that same question. If I've seen an international side play with 11 against 15 and uh and I think we discussed it beforehand, Brenden, and

1:10 and maybe Gavin can help us out here, but maybe it was against Ireland, they were down to 12. I don't think I've ever seen the box play against 11 players before at the end. And and I mean they they I mean they were counting every

1:23 single second down because had it gone on another five minutes, we were going to score another try. I mean, they had two guys back, but but we really were all over them at the end. I just felt that through over the game, um the first

1:37 half was very even right up until just before Halime. Uh 17 all. If we'd gone in there 170 all, I think that that young side would have done a really good job. Um we weren't winning. There were two areas of the game that that we were

1:51 poor at today. Firstly, we didn't get scrum penalties with with the the the scrummaging front row that we started the game with and we did discuss that before. We thought that they might not dominate the Australian scrum. I thought

2:03 Angus Bell handled it handled their scrum really well. And secondly, their contestable uh competing for contestables was unusually better than us. They were very very good. I mean, Sui deflecting one or one came off Fusty

2:17 shoulder. I wasn't quite sure. And andar's try came from one of those contestable. I thought Lonigan kicked beautifully and um and and Jorgensson was absolutely outstanding in the air as well. So, you know, the the two areas

2:29 that we normally can bank on, two of our pillars, as I like to call it, um they were they were very good. So, after 60 minutes, one couldn't argue with that 4217. You know, there was one of those very frustrating bock attacks where one

2:44 poor pass went to ground behind Kane and Moody and Jorgensson picked it up and ran. So it was almost like a 14-point turnaround there. But then I thought that's the nail in the coffin. You know, we've got to be careful now. Not not not

2:57 to go the way of the of the of the match at Ellis Park. Um you know, where they just scored and scored against us. The more we tried, the more they managed to uh uh pick off our mistakes and score points. But but um the moment we got our

3:11 our scrum going and it's quite unusual because the moment we started getting scrum penalties, their discipline just you know fell out the out the window. They they they were coming in with high tackles, high shots in from the side um

3:23 you know playing the scrum off without the ball uh offside no arms tackle and and I don't think any of those yellow cards could be argued. In fact, possibly there could have been more. I mean, if you think that we got a penalty for what

3:38 was what was I think Ethan Hooker tackled one of their players on the shoulder and just rode up to touch his chin. I mean, to get a penalty for that I thought was unusual, but they were getting clear head-on head-on head

3:51 contact and and and getting yellow cards and they weren't upgraded to red, which is fine, but uh they definitely deserved the yellow card. So that that final 20 minutes was a was a very strange part of the game in that they were trying to

4:05 play out time and we were just begging to have another five minutes just to just to you know maybe finish them off because we we we came back very very strongly at the end and we're and we're all over them in the last 10 15 minutes

4:18 but it was mainly because they were down to uh to 11 players. So I think overall they deserved the win. uh I I you know I felt we didn't play well enough particularly in the 20 minutes in that second or our first 20 minutes where we

4:31 where our discipline wasn't good you know we gave away I think six or seven consecutive penalties and got ourselves really into a bad position they got they went from 17 to 20 uh to uh yeah um 24 to 27 to 30 and then two tries so we

4:49 were it the game was taken away from us in that period that 20 minutes. Yeah, Gav, um I I agree with a lot what Nick says and we'll get into some of the official them because I think we need to speak about that as well. There some of

5:01 the bizarre things that happened in this test. We'll still get to that. But just on that, I mean, I I also feel that while it was dramatic and the box did have this amazing comeback and really were on top at the end and if they had

5:13 started that comeback probably four minutes earlier, five minutes earlier, they would have won. The wannabes deserved this. They were more clinical whenever they needed to score whenever they now 22. And uh yeah, they certainly

5:24 certainly we paid the price for for having a team that was disjointed and hadn't played since July against a team that's got a couple of good results against a draw against Argentina, win against Argentina and uh you know is is

5:37 on the rise as the box said this week. Well, just firstly when you you mentioned official DM because because Nick cued me here when he mentioned that Ethan Hooker incident. I mean there were little sort of incidents in the little

5:48 things that happened in the game that were turning points and if I remember correctly um after that penalty against against Ethan Hooker they ended up scoring shortly after that. So So to me that was a that was a that that was a

6:01 big moment in the game. So So it was one of those sort of games. Um yeah look I mean it wasn't completely unexpected Brendon. I mean, we we all predicted, well, we all thought that the box would win because we've got a lot of faith in

6:13 in their in the depth that the Springboks have available. And I know Mark Kahane um what's at me like towards the end and said, "What do you think?" And he he was sort of saying, "Well, this shows that we don't have such good

6:24 backup." And and I said, well, you know, if we if we if you're talking about sh like just backup of of the first choice team, if there is such a thing as a first choice team for a start, Thomas Detoy is is is there ahead of Zachary

6:37 Pan. Um Keratump is there ahead of um Yan Hendrik. Yan Hendrik maybe would be the hooker actually in a backup team and and not and not at Lucid. Um and you and you and you go through through the players um you know there are guys who

6:53 who sort of came home. I'm I'm trying to think because I felt that I I just felt it was just in congruous for me watching that game. It just to me it was a little bit that the loose trio with with with Marco at number eight just looked a

7:05 little bit sort of like not right. I mean it's just in I mean Paul Devil did did a lot of scavenging. Paul Devils was was was really good at thought in the game, but but it just sort of felt that um you know at Halime I was thinking to

7:19 myself, well the bomb squad needs to come on but in my mind I wasn't actually even thinking of the front row. I was actually thinking of of of Visa. I was thinking of Yasper Visa to come on for his carrying. So so so we were missing

7:31 players there. I've never been completely convinced that that Eric Low is a number seven flank in the South African tradition. I mean maybe for some overseas teams he would he would be that but to me he's not like in the sort of

7:43 Peter Steph mold or or even the Ben Jason Dixon or going back a couple of decades I mean a couple of years to to Jan Smith or or or Donnie Rouso. He's not he's not really that kind of player. So so we had a sort of a little bit of a

7:56 sort of inongruance a congressous type of selection. But I I just want to also say that, you know, just watching this game and having, you know, when the box lose, you get lots of people WhatsAppapping you and and everybody's

8:07 negative and all that. I just want to come out and say with the box that Andre Esther Hazen sort of said it afterwards. He said, "We've been training." He he he he wanted to avoid making an excuse of why they lost and that when the team

8:20 hadn't, he said, "We've been training together for 19 weeks." They've been in camp for 19 weeks. We were both at Suetto that night, Brenden, when the box won that third test. It was a heck of an emotional occasion. Um, even we were

8:34 sort of shattered afterwards, emotionally shattered afterwards. Imagine what it must have been like for the box. A few hours after that game, they got onto an airplane and they flew to America. And then then after winning

8:46 another very emotional game in America, they then flew to Australia, which is sort of halfway across the world. I'm not sure if if like from a player welfare point of view or a mental health point of view going on a on on a long

8:59 tour like that like sort of celebrating your RGR victory which is which is the big rugby event of the year that's your big achievement of the year was beating the All Blacks you then go on a round world trip to play against Australia.

9:11 So, I just sort of felt that that that that I agree with you. The uzies were very good, but I also felt that there were times when it almost felt like they had more energy if you know what I'm saying. And that doesn't surprise me

9:21 because if I was a Springbach player and I mean obviously Nick's been a Springbach coach. So, so you know, a lot of people out there don't know how tough it is actually to tour, but but Nick's been a Springbach coach and both you and

9:31 I have followed Springbook tours. When you're in a hotel room for weeks on end and you're traveling for weeks on end, it's not actually the glamorous life that people think it is. It's not like, oh, the I'd love to live in a hotel. I'd

9:43 love to fly every second day. It's not like that. And and I actually do feel for those spring players and it's not something I thought about before the game, but when I was watching that game, I was thinking to myself, if I was a

9:53 springball player, I just want to get home now and put my feet up for a while because Andre Estan's right. They started training together. They went into camp. They went into camp before anybody went to camp. We always go into

10:06 camp before because of the Japanese players and everything. I just think that that that that is a m and I know I'm sort of going on a long longwinded here, but I'm I'm just think that that's a big mitigating factor in in in my view

10:18 is just is just what we expect these players to do sometimes and and sometimes I think that maybe we sort of expect them to do too much. G G I agree and I look I mean I don't think straight after the games the time I I I agree

10:29 with everything you say then I remember having a conversation in the Johannesburg hotel there with Wayne for me and we told me that he when he gets back he's he's got some family things he has to go do with his kids and that'll

10:40 be after 17 weeks or 18 weeks on the road and and I still I still remember think gez that's a long time at that stage but this is not to make excuses for the box Nick what I want to actually ask you about that what Gavin said we

10:52 know it's a long road and and maybe This is one game too far for the box in terms of that. But by playing these making these 13 changes and what we saw today, what do you think Russie got out of this?

11:05 >> Yeah, that that is an interesting one. I mean, you certainly wanted a mobile front front row and we had that. I thought I thought the their ability around the field on defense was outstanding. I thought Zack Poran got

11:16 got around the field. So did Yan Henrik Wessels and as did Kroah. Um I agree. I didn't think that the balance of the loose forwards was great. I think that um he that um Eric Low looks more more like a sort of a lock playing flank as

11:31 opposed to a proper outard flank who's really quick. You know, we we we are blessed with big guys who are quick and I don't think he's that fast. Um I didn't didn't think Marco had a great game. I I didn't see enough of him, but

11:45 I don't think and I thought Cameron Hanukkah would have made a difference, but then obviously they wanting to rest him and give him a break, but Cameron Hanukkah is a breakthrough player. So we have got a lot of depth still as you

11:55 said Thomas DTO um in looking at the backline I thought Canon Moody um did well I think really did well and I thought ES at center was direct and physical um pity that we had a little knock on Furva's try but we scored one

12:11 beautiful backline try with a lovely pass from Pollard so there was a moment there when Pollard also got momentum to our backline it went to Estas in first behind behind the the the one-off runner to Polard and Polard hit a left-hand

12:25 pass, left-handed pass straight to Canon Moody and and it was a beautiful or was it a fussy I think and Fussy then put um yeah and put Furva over it was a it really was a lovely backline move so that took us to 17 all so there were a

12:39 bits of Tony Brown in that performance I thought in that first half but we did have a very poor 20 minutes in the second half and it was while the the the bench came on as well so um you know it was putting bench on and getting the

12:53 other guys off and they just pegged away with three those three penalties and uh and and and then the couple of the one try was a good one. Um but uh but the mistake we made which which got them to 42 I think was was was really difficult.

13:08 I'm not sure Quan Horn had enough time on the field for for [clears throat] us to make a real judgment about his performance. It's difficult coming on in those circumstances uh when you when we were down by as much as we were and um I

13:22 [clears throat] just think that you know if this had been a a really important game say a game in the greatest rivalry we we would have started with our bench except for Coinhorn we would have definitely started with the seven other

13:36 guys and we would have bought the youngsters off the bench with 20 to 30 minutes to go to add energy at the end of the game and If we done it that way round, despite the travel, I still believe we would have uh we'd have been

13:49 up at Halime against these guys. We would have been getting scrum penalties because there's a massive difference between Oxen Sher Marx and uh and and Wilo as a scrummaging unit and um and remember behind the Yeti and and Most

14:04 and then Liaga came on. So there was nothing wrong with that type five. If they had started the game, um I would have seen Australia under under the same pressure that that New Zealand was. And when New Zealand were under pressure,

14:17 what happens is you give you're giving away scrum penalties which allow us then to kick kick for touch, get our mall going, they get penalties against defending the mall illegally and we suddenly get a roll on and then and I

14:31 think we would have done that. So, um, the the the the way we I do think that our lack of scrum penalties was was a problem for us and and the contestable game wasn't as good as it usually is. I think those are the two

14:47 key areas that came out of that game. Um, that that New Zealand really did well. Souali uh on the wing was I thought very very good in the air and as I said uh Jorgensson outstanding. He reminded me a bit of Colby, you know,

15:01 not a very tall guy, but very very good with his timing, you know, jumping up and beating Quan Horn in the air was one of their contestables. Won a lot. I mean, they were very good. They they they didn't allow us to to to get many

15:14 of the scraps at all. And that's what we feed off, you know. We we're good at scoring tries off of those transitions. Gav, in a lot of ways, this game when I was sitting watching it, it felt like a lot of those tour matches you and I have

15:27 been on in in Australia where the box have played not particularly well. The Aussies have been clever a lot of the times and have scored when it's mattered, but you always felt the boxer was going to get going to get the upper

15:38 hand somewhere in the game and inevitably they haven't in a number of those games we went there. There's a number of those turning points like you said a bit earlier. Um Ed Wolf Mavas the drop pass won Monberg dropping the ball

15:51 over there although there should have been probably a yellow card there for Ligan offside at that stage. Uh you know things like that that just went against them. Um and and and is is it is it as simple as that? I know you learn more

16:04 from losing than you do from winning. I suppose in terms of where we were going towards the World Cup, the I said earlier in the week that this probably the rest this team is probably the guys that the rest that 33 is going to come

16:16 out of plus the greatest rivalry team. Where do you what do you think Rassie's learned from that? >> Well, Brennan, I'm I'm going to go back two years now or is it four years actually to 2022 to you and I having a

16:29 bit of a disagreement after the Springboks lost in Bloomfenta to Wales. It was a very changed up team. remember I think I think Rassie made it was Jacqu Jock Ninber officially was the coach but Rassie obviously is behind the scenes

16:41 there. Um they they made 14 changes for that game remember and I think Polly actually Andre Pollard was the captain in that game and and we lost in the last few minutes and and you were very sort of crest fallen after the game and I

16:53 said listen we tried something we tried something different and so what I'm going to actually ask actually do is ask you the question if like we we basically agree that what happened in the in the greatest rivalry series was that we

17:05 started off badly because we we had a team we had a team that didn't have cohesion because they hadn't played for a I mean that team that played at that first test at Ellis Park hadn't played

17:16 since the 4th of July against England now and then they came right after that because they were playing they were playing successive weeks and and and I think you you guys would both agree with me because we've said it before that the

17:28 box got better as the series went on and in the end they were almost unbeaten. I mean if if we had a fifth test against the or we'd probably have thumb thumped them. Um, but I I I I just I just sort of think that the the um if if this team

17:44 that's where really what I'm asking you if if this team was now given a chance and I'm talking about the starting team, not not the not the bge. If the starting team was then given an opport because I I do believe in the talent and the

17:55 talent in that team. I mean if if I was choosing a sort of a spring a team or or second string team, I would choose obviously Hanukkah at number eight. I would choose Thomas DeToy as the as as as the tight head prop, you know, and

18:07 and and Herat Stac and and those other changes that I was telling you about, but like this team because that's what worries me is that that people look at this and they and then they say, well, you know, that shows we don't have as

18:17 much depth as we think we do. I think no, we've got context. the circumstance to this that maybe if the box now had another game to play in Australia next week and they play the same team again, we would see that box team improve and

18:31 incrementally improve if we were actually dafty enough to organize a four four match series against Australia. Um but incrementally improve over o over those weeks. So I don't know do I mean would you would you agree with that

18:42 point that I that I'm making because because that's what concerns me. I just know that the South African public sometimes overreacts and Nick would know that because he's been a springball coach and we ourselves in Nick's time

18:52 spring coach overreacted. Um it is a you know there is a sort of a tendency to overreact but I'd sort of say you can't just suddenly throw guys away like somebody like Fussy I mean hadn't play when last did he play? He played against

19:04 Argentina I think which was probably in early August. Yeah of 8th of August in fact I remember the date. It was the 8th of August. That's a sort of a long time ago and you constantly and I know yes we we train and we we we train to play but

19:18 like it's a long time not to actually pull the jersey over your shoulders and and actually play in an 80-minute game. >> Yeah, just just to see you go first of all in Wales I wasn't crest fallen in Wellington I was crest falling in 2011.

19:31 There you can there you can say that. I I think to me is it's a I'm one of those people where I never like to see the Springboks lose and I think I'm like a lot of people with that. Um I I did understand I just felt they could have

19:43 won that game and I think I was disappointed that they didn't win that game against Wales because the opportunities were there in that game. So that's that's the first part. Um and I agree with you. I I don't think this

19:52 is the end of the world. I I don't think Russie will see it as the end of the world either. He'll have taken learnings out of this. Uh but his plans did backfire because he did make 13 changes. He didn't have to make 13 changes and he

20:04 did and and we we talked we both you and Nick have spoken about we didn't get the scrum dominance but the other thing we did we gave them free line out ball the whole time. I don't know um that was obviously a tactic by not going in and

20:16 contesting in their lineups in that first half because we gave them a lot of ball and a lot of platform to launch from and and they had majority of possession and territory in that first half and we were tackling a lot of the

20:26 time. Our discipline didn't help us in that time but I I agree they would have been better. I I I just didn't I think there's a tendency sometimes to feel and maybe nickel be better to come in on this that when you play Australia you

20:39 feel you can get away with a with a a we so-called weaker front row because we have in the past we played John Hendrick Wessels and Yuan Kbla against him before and we've won and so you you feel you don't need oxen chair necessarily and

20:52 and Walker Low and Malcolm Mars necessary to front up against the Aussies and they and they played well we got to give them credit they played exceptionally well But I do think if we did play them at the same team next

21:02 week, we would win that game. And uh and it's just this showed me very much this is a team that last played in July and a lot of those little mistakes with with stuff that you see from players haven't played together very much like the the

21:13 the box in that first test against New Zealand. >> Yeah. Yeah. We listen to go back to what we talked about um before the game. I said the rusty spect team that usually we pick against Scotland at home or

21:26 Wales and Italy away or at home. you know, we he's he's picked a what is as as Gavin, you wrote in one of your articles so correctly, this wasn't an A team. No one could argue that this was the box test team. I know we were saying

21:41 that we've got three guys equal, but no one's equal to Oxen chair as a loose head prop, but no one's equal scrummaging to Wilo and no hooker in the world is equal to Malcolm Marx. It's is the best still the best lock standing,

21:56 you know. So there are players that are better than others. We have got very good replacements but to put for put 13 replacements on the field. Um you know was a risk and it was a risk playing against Australia who had come off four

22:10 or five four test matches I think in one draw. Four wins in one draw and uh and and a new coach that's always a bounce for the for the team under a new coach. I mean, they're talking about the connection in the team and how they

22:23 played for each other and all that, but to be honest, they were all over the place in those last 20 minutes. I mean, they they were just giving penalty after penalty weight. They were trying hard not to concede tries, but they were

22:33 doing so in a way that uh that would be so damaging in a World Cup game. You can't go in with shoulder charges to the head or or or high tackles to the head anytime during the game. And it's one thing we've got better at. You know, we

22:47 tend our discipline has been very very good. So, I think we've we've really um we we've got a good squad of 35 players and what whoever we take to the World Cup, we're going to be fine. I will say this that if if Australia managed to get

23:02 their discipline right, which was one of the only criticisms I would have of them because their lineup was good, their scrum was good, their contestables were good, and they had a I don't think Donaldson's a great flyoff. I thought he

23:13 was pretty clunky, but um a lot of his passers went to ground in that first half, which which was lucky for us. But um he his uh um if they get a fly off there who who understands how to play it flat and you know and and and and when

23:28 to kick and when to pass and when to take it to the line then they're going to be very dangerous and I think dangerous for for New Zealand because New Zealand you know they they won't be able to scrum them off their ball and

23:38 they're not going to New Zealand are not as good at contestables as Australia is at the moment. So New Zealand have a big problem in my view uh in that opening game. we might be playing Australia in the quarterfinal and not New Zealand.

23:52 >> Gav, I would I would partly agree with Nick because um I I would agree. I think for next year's World Cup, they are a big danger for New Zealand. And I I I know I got uh the reactions I got on on the greatest rivalry when talking to

24:04 some of the Kiwi journers saying, "But uh maybe we're not going to meet you in the quarterfinal. Maybe it'll be Australia. Maybe that'll be to New Zealand's benefit in the World Cup." Anyway, they they didn't quite agree

24:13 with me. uh yeah they they they thought it was at faith comply that they're going to beat Australia for that and I suppose with their Bersto cup history they they would be I think for the World Cup they're very much a danger but I'm

24:24 not sure if I agree 100% for next week against New Zeal time whenever they play in this bersl though I think the fact that they won today might be um might count against them might wake up the old blacks quite a bit and that bit of

24:37 confidence that the wbeies take that might might back I don't know maybe maybe I'm slightly wrong maybe it will give them the the confidence they need just what you Okay. Sorry, you're asking me. Yeah. Um,

24:48 okay. So, so I'll go back to what I was saying earlier. Now, the Springboks, you know, what what I was saying earlier was that the Springboks have like one won a major series and then went on tour to celebrate. They went on around the world

24:59 tour to celebrate. Um, the All Blacks haven't done that, but and and they've also now will feel that they've got something to prove because obviously questions are now being asked because they have effectively lost three games

25:10 in a row. So, so there's a lot of pressure on a on on New Zealand at the moment, but at the same time as I say that, I'm also thinking also wondering if there might not be some kind of hangover. Okay, they've they've got a

25:22 lot of time to recover. I mean, we we we this game today was played two weeks after the end of the greatest rivalry tour. I'm not sure when the bleeders low first game is, but I think it's in two weeks time. So, so then I suppose there

25:34 will then then I suppose there will be a month um between and and I think that that the All Blacks will be better for having played the Springboks. I mean because despite today's result despite today today's result the Springboks are

25:48 better than than the Walabes. I mean today's game was a bit of a freak. Unfortunately we we've said it two times out of three against the Wabes now because Ellis Park last year was a freak as well. So, we can't keep saying that

26:00 if they end up winning seven out of 10 games in the next few years, we're going to have to stop calling it a freak. But, um, it it was a bit of a sort of a aberration if if you like. Um, we did make 13 changes for this game. Um, like

26:14 the All Blacks for instance, I don't think would be able to make 13 changes and expect to beat Australia, whereas we do have the depth to sort of go in and think and think we can do that. So I I think that the Orbs will be better for I

26:26 think they'll be bit they'll be much better for having played played South South Africa over four successive weeks which is a heck of a bloody pro program really if you think about it. Um next year I do think that the Aussies are on

26:38 the rise. I mean I do think that they that they're improving and and knowing the Australians they'll find some rugby league players from somewhere that we haven't heard of yet but that that will be brilliant players that will suddenly

26:49 come in and and and give them a whole new dynamic. So I would be worried about new if I was New Zealand I I would be a little bit concerned about the World Cup opening game in in in in a year's time. Although having said that well you know

27:02 what World Cups are like I mean you can lose the first game and still go on and win the tournament. Ask the Springboks after 2019. But um yeah, I I I I after today I I think you're right if you I don't know if it was you or Nick said it

27:17 if you're sort of almost a little bit more confident now that that the Wabies might beat the All Blacks in that first game at the World Cup. I I would agree with you there. But I don't think that this win's going to have a good impact.

27:27 Um I mean it's going to necessarily galvanize them to to to win the Bliters Cup back. I don't think so. New Zealand take that very seriously. They're going to be very motivated. They hurt after losing to the box.

27:38 >> Yeah. Uh Nick, I want to talk to talk to the officiating because yeah, we we we had this discussion after Baltimore as well where the officiating we had this bizarre thing of the comms dying. We had it again today. Rugby doesn't do itself

27:51 any favors with that. Uh and we had this bizarre situation. I can see it becoming a meme and and becoming sort of a bit of a joke and and adverts and things like that of the referee on his cell phone the whole time. Um that that that's the

28:05 one part of it which is is is really bizarre. But what what the thing that I wanted to ask about it is where I think rugby does itself a disservice and where the officials today did rugby a disservice was uh we had the TMO coming

28:17 in on Ethan Hooker's one giving a penalty there where two of the four replays didn't actually even look like there was head contact. The other two maybe you could be argued there was a glancing head contact. It looked like a

28:29 rugby collision to me watching it live. Uh but they gave the penalty and then we had this bizarre situation full-on head contact with Malcolm Mark shoulder to the head. They look at the TMO they don't have the coms but they look at the

28:43 all three officials look at the thing and they say it's only a penalty. Let's carry on. Then they stop the scrum then go back get the phone go on the TV. Um that whole sequence was just ridiculous. and and and the fact to to me the fact

28:57 that they ignored the the the first visuals of it was probably the most alarming of everything. >> Yeah, I I do I do sympathize with PR. I really do. I think it must be a dreadful situation to be in the middle of a of a

29:12 of a big test match and you're and you haven't got coms with your TMO and you're depending on the guy on the side shouting at you that someone's spoken and that you've got to stop the game and that you've got to have a look on the

29:24 but you can't still hear him and he and you and you can't say because the information gets passed really well if it's if it's working as a team of four. I mean, very few times have I seen them. I mean, I don't always agree with the

29:37 decision that's taken. Although, it looks as though World Rugby has asked them to be less vigorous, a little bit less vigorous on these head contacts. If the guys ducked or there's a second tackler in there, they're a bit more

29:49 lenient. Uh, which is good for the game. And let's penalty and let's move on or a yellow card and let's move on and play quickly. But this game, unfortunately, the guy just over that marks thing, it was so there were two players. I mean,

30:02 one was a high arm around his neck and the other one was a blow straight to the head and and Markx went straight to the ref afterwards, gave it the bloody square and said to him, "Listen, have a have a check, please. It's hit my head."

30:15 And uh he he was trying to sort of ignore it. And then obviously the TMO couldn't couldn't get to him. And um so I think he was going to let it go and then luckily, you know, luckily I think it was probably one of his touch judges

30:28 said, "Hang on a sec. Don't don't play on here." um there is an issue and they ran on with the telephone with a with a with a cell phone and he was able to hear you know his TMO again which is what should happen. I mean it's

30:41 ridiculous with with a with a communications being as as good as they are technology as good as it is in now in the world you should never have a situation where where an international game um you know some guy has to use a

30:54 cell phone to talk to his TMO. I mean that's that's ridiculous. Gabri just on the rest of the decisions in the game and and the box lost that we as we've said the wabies deserve to win but there were some interesting

31:08 decisions in that game as they always are in test matches as well. Also, just want to get your take on that as well. And and Nick, just on the on the on the comms thing, Gav and I will tell you, having being at being at these games and

31:19 having to file and use internet connections, the one thing I always say to him is is yeah, we can put a man on the moon, but for some reason, we can't get a mobile mobile signal, a Wi-Fi signal to work at a cell at a a rugby

31:32 stadium. So, for some reason, technology doesn't work with that. G, you want to come in? Well, look, I mean, apart from the thing that I mentioned earlier about that that Ethan Hooker thing, there wasn't that m I mean, I just got very

31:43 frustrated with with how slow every I mean, I I am I do have a problem with rugby and I mean, this sounds like I'm almost contradicting myself in the RGR series. I was I was criticizing I was giving you know I was going to say I was

31:55 I was a bit critical of Dave Ready but but that's a different thing when we're talking about ball and play and but just like that stop start thing at the end when you know when but as I as Nick says it it was exceptional circumstances

32:07 unfortunately it's been exceptional circumstances for two two matches in a row now I mean we had we had an eight we had an eight minute or nine minute delay in Baltimore as well and this one and you know I actually at one stage got a

32:19 bit irritated with the box as well because I I I realized that the time was going down and um in the end I was probably wrong because they ended up with a penalty try and and maybe they wouldn't have got it there but like you

32:29 know scrums take a lot of time in the game as well and they were sort of going and at one stage they were they were plucking down and I was sitting watching at people and I said for goodness sake guys just take a tap this time and but

32:39 in the end you know you you you get you do get the you do get the penalty tri so it's a bit of like you know six of one and half a dozen of the other but yeah I would I wouldn't I wasn't I know you you WhatsApp me and you said that you didn't

32:51 think that Potti was having a good day. Um I I wasn't wholly negative about him. I mean it was um as as Nick said, it was a very sort of difficult circumstance and I'd I'd hate to be out there on the field with with just a cell phone to

33:05 communicate with people um and with the noise that goes on in in the game and and I thought he had good conversations with both captains and so so I don't have too many too many too many complaints about the referee. Ju just to

33:19 clarify Gav I messaged you earlier in the game. It was before all those issues happened as well. So is it >> I can't remember. Yeah know I can't remember. I mean >> I have a lot of sympathy for them when

33:29 that happens because I mean they do try their best and the noise at the stadium can be overwhelming as we know as well. >> Okay. I mean I look I mean where I also have sympathy for referees. It must become really difficult if you're a

33:40 referee and you're having to give out so so many yellow cards. I'm like one of those rugby people who believes that it should always be 15 against 15 and and I've always supported people in the past like the former referee Friak Burger

33:54 came out and said that you you you card a guy and he he doesn't play again in the game and you bring guys on off the bench. I really do believe it should always be 15 against 15. But it must be really difficult for a ref when you know

34:06 that you've already sent three guys to you've already sent three guys to the bin and then you've got a glaring error that you've got to send another one. I mean, where does it stop? I mean, are we going to end up in a one day in a

34:16 situation where you've only got eight guys left in the field for the one team? I mean, I remember playing in a rugby match where where where it was my team that ended up with about eight at the end of the game. That was because of

34:25 injuries. It wasn't a pleasant experience. Um, it's um it's a yeah, it's a it's a that that's also where I have sympathy for the referees in this modern age where yellow cards well yellow cards and

34:38 red and yellow cards are sort of part of the game. So, and and and I mean I can't remember who he was referring in Dublin last last year, but you know, when it came to those scrum penalties, he got he was it Matt Carley? Yeah. Um he he got a

34:51 lot of criticism afterwards from the Irish, but you know, he didn't have any choice but to to award those scrum penalties and and to send the Irish players off the field. >> Just on on this, sorry, just just on

35:04 this, Pott has a tendency to favor the attacking team. So the team that's on attack, that's going forward, that's trying to win ball, you know, he tends to penalize the defensive side. He looks very hard to see whether someone's

35:17 interfering with a nine, whether they offside around the side of the rack where there's a side entry. Um, you know, because when we were penalized a lot, when they all when the Australians came back into the game, I think they

35:29 had about four or five penalty advantages and penalties that they were given, but they were all fairly obvious. you know, one I think Elrich Lo played the ball in the rack and, you know, kicked it with his foot or something

35:41 like that and and and Lonigan was was um, you know, then it was they played the nine. Visa tackled their player into their nine, but then also tackled their nine. So, that was a legitimate penalty, you know. But then they had penalty

35:54 advantage. Penalty advantage on the line and they kicked for the corner and and Harry Wilson scored the try and and so you you know they they did get that Australia got the benefit of when they were on attack but but the moment we

36:07 were you know got on attack the moment we were in in position to score he was very strict on Australia and he didn't hesitate. He was but just kept on saying yellow card yellow card. So, I think he was trying his best and and and when I

36:19 say I usually do have a crack at the referees because, you know, as a player and as a coach, I've suffered, you know, severely at at the hands of referees in the past. But I must admit, he's got a little conversation with the with the

36:32 captains today where he said, "Guys, it's really difficult for me, you know, it's a it's frustrating for you, I know, and for the players, but I I can't hear, you know, and I I can't get the information I want to, and that's why

36:44 it's so slow. and please just just live live with it, you know, and and I did feel sorry for him at that moment. I thought, hell, it must be difficult, you know, because crowds is getting restless. Time is are you stopping time?

36:56 Are you you know, it's just very difficult. You both both captains in your ears all the time talking to you about go back to that one and surely there was an offside advantage and stuff. It must be very very tricky. So I

37:08 think listen I think he didn't he in difficult very difficult circumstances I think he did a good job. >> Yeah. No Nick I agree with you those those ones the ones I was referring to there was one where I think Franco

37:19 Mustard was pinned for going off his feet and we saw the replay and you saw what the Aussie guys diving in and taking him out made him fall. There was another one with Fraser Ra got a penalty. He wasn't on the ball. He he is

37:32 on the on the the I mean but those must be difficult for ref to have a look at anyway in the in the heat at the moment. We've got replay so it makes and there's over 200 laws to riff. So so that's always difficult guys. Let's go to our

37:44 Toyota. >> I was just going to say just going to say what but wasn't that this that's this type of game is that it's almost like what happened in the end makes you forget what happened before. It was just

37:53 such a bizarre game that it's like you almost like because you asked me about the referee and I can remember the last 20 minutes of the referee but it because it was so bizarre that's almost like clouds everything. So so so I end up

38:04 talking about that. Yeah. Sorry Brad. Sorry. Yeah. I was going to say guys, let's go to our two toughest player. Uh we do this every week. We pick a South African player. Of course, when the Springboks lose, it makes a bit more

38:16 difficult, but I think it's a pretty easy one. Uh this is one where we pick a player that's reliable, tough, got the hard body, pretty much like the new Toyota Hilux. Uh so guys, I I think to me, I'll kick it off because I don't

38:29 think we're going to have too much argument. The one player that stood out for me straight at the start of each half and everywhere in the game was Paul Devidas. Uh there's one or two players that came close. I thought mag second

38:39 second half. Obviously the bomb squad guys came close as well, but I just think over the overall game, Paul Deill, Gav, do you want to come in first and maybe and Ty if you disagree? >> I I I don't know if I've ever seen Paul

38:51 Devil play a bad game in the spring jersey. I mean, okay, we only we've got we've got a sample of of I think five. I think he played three games in in the nation's champion. What was it? Anyway, it's four or five games that he's played

39:03 and and he's to me he can be like the sort of Toyota's Toyota toughest player just about every week. It's actually quite bizarre because, you know, he's he's got just a phen such a phenomenal work rate and and then after the game I

39:15 sort of saw Dion Fere sort of in the periphery there obviously watching the game and and I was sort of thinking both those guys are going back to the Stormers now. I mean John Thompson's certainly got quite interesting

39:25 selections to make when it comes to number six. Um, if you if you consider that we saw we saw Sea in in Goreway the other night watching that game which is which I was surprised. I mean full marks to Seir that he's so desperate to to

39:38 play for the Stormers that he flew himself over there to make himself available. But no um going back to Paul Devil I don't I think that guy's going to have a huge career for the Springboks. I mean he he is just a phenomenal

39:49 player. He's got such a phenomenal work work rate and as you say some some really crucial turnovers. >> Nick, I'll take it. You don't disagree. Yeah. No, I don't disagree. And and and I was just while Gavin was talking, I

40:03 think I was thinking about a loose trio who, you know, I think would have possibly done better. Um I think that Paul Devil was outstanding. I think Cameron come at number eight. I'm not talking about our starting one, which is

40:16 Sia Kesi Visa and Peter Steftoy. And I think um Ruan Fenta or BJ Dixon, you know, could play that seven flank really effectively. you know, they so we'd have, you know, we'd have a hell of a loose trio if you had if you had Cameron

40:30 Hikcom, Paul Dillas, and either Ron Fento or or BJ Dixon there. We, you know, we do have strength in depth, guys. Don't don't forget it. We really do. And once we get our name back, and maybe there's a young lock coming

40:43 through, maybe R from the Sharks, it's a big year for him. You never know. You know, we've got we've got some really good talent around. So um you know this this you you saw how happy Australia were to win that game. I mean they were

40:59 absolutely they were through the roof. I mean we are we are that we are admired by by every team in the world and to beat South Africa is a massive feat for anyone and uh doesn't matter who pulls this framework jersey on. who represent

41:14 our country and it's disappointing when we lose but there are I mean travel um and a lack of coordination and and a lack of scum penalties etc. I've been through that. But one one person we can honestly say gives 100% every time he

41:30 plays. Reliable as the day is long and that's Paul Deillas. I'm right behind you on that one. >> Yeah, Toyota. Toughest player. Very easy choice this week. Guys, maybe just a last question for me. I think we're

41:43 going to start signing off then. Uh just looking ahead to the the nation's championship end of the year. Rassie did have a have a a say in one of the press conferences we're in, Gavin. I can't remember which one it was. Feels like

41:54 we've been in so many press conferences with Rassie this year uh that he he did say that after after this Australia tour the guys who come back and there's a couple of guys who would need a very long break. Uh we've already seen Peter

42:07 Stephy and and Damon Denda sent us in Gway. Uh they a bunch of those guys who are with local teams will probably be playing with the ERC teams over October. But in November, uh, we might see you might see a very different Springbook

42:22 team going. And I I would back Rassie to do that because I feel the the Rugby's greatest rivalry was the the goal this year. You could win all your games in December and uh still not make the final this this nation's championship. If your

42:35 points difference is is is not as good as the All Blacks, for instance. So I would I would back taking a lot of part of this team and and he'll know who he needs but uh yeah leaving quite a few guys at home to rest this year.

42:48 >> Are you asking me? >> Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. >> Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Well well well then then then we go back to what I was saying earlier because then if they go on if if they're going to to Europe they

42:59 they starting out in Italy and with respect to Italy and I know that they've they've done some great things recently and and they beat England in in the last six nations. Um, you know, you you you've got a chance to to get a I'm not

43:13 even going to say a younger team because it doesn't have to be a younger team. It just needs to be a little bit of a changed up team and not as changed up necessarily because I don't think we I don't think we're talking about him

43:22 leaving all the sort of first choice players at home. I think we're talking about leave leaving certain players at home. But, you know, if if you if you're going to get other guys a chance now, um when I say other guys, I'm talking about

43:34 guys who haven't played who didn't play four tests against the RGR in the RGR series. Um then this is an opportunity to sort of give them some momentum, give the give give the team a little bit of a bit of continuity. I'm I'm all for him

43:47 resting players at the end of the year. The only caveat that I add to that now is that this result might throw a bit of a spanner in the works because we also know how the South African psyche is and okay, we'll probably beat Italy e even

44:02 even with a sort of changed up team, but then we go in with a changed up team and we lose to Italy to to Ireland and France in successive weeks. Suddenly there's that sort of talk about, you know, Rassie's um losing games in a row

44:15 and all that. That's just the way South Africans are, especially the way the New Zealanders are. We've seen Dave Renie coming under under under under pressure now for the same reason. So, so that would be my caveat. And in a in a way,

44:26 he needed to win today to give himself that platform. Just like I said last week, he needed to win the RGR series to give himself the platform to experiment today. I think that he's almost needed to win today to to give him more leeway

44:40 at the end of the year. >> Nick, your your thoughts? >> Yeah. Yeah. I I I think he's going to go for this uh league. He there's no competition South Africa is involved in which we don't want to win. So um I I

44:55 think I've as I've said before I think changed up team for Italy um and fully available team for Ireland and for France and we're going to try and finish first and we we we're going to try and beat the best Northern Hemisphere team

45:10 in the final. So that's my view of it and and I think um if you go on game time the amount of minutes that has played in this year would be very few. So it doesn't matter that he's had six games in a row for the Springboks but he

45:26 hasn't had a lot for the last six months. So you know he he you know he he could go on this end of year tour with ease. There's no problem for him. There's no problem really for Sea. He was injured for a very long time. Now

45:39 Peter's deto in Japan so you know he he could be you know he could if he's injured now or whatever I still think that we've got the ability to take a very strong squad um and and uh you know people like Dander and people like Jesse

45:54 Kriel Sacha and Gazulu they're going to be desperate to play they want to play this but you can't tell me that um Villims won't want to go on this trip and and and and win this competition so I don't see us um taking a week, not a

46:09 week, leaving six, seven, eight experienced good players who going to go to the World Cup next year. I don't I can't see us leaving them behind for the for this Northern Hemisphere tour. I think we could we might see them only

46:21 playing one or two games. Maybe one of the two and then the final if we get in the final, but um but but I think he'll still go for this competition like he went for the for the for the He'll be disappointed we lost it. I promise you,

46:34 you'll be very disappointed as will the players that we lost today against Australia. You know, it's one thing when you play badly and you scrape through against Argentina, but when you we didn't really play that badly, in fact,

46:46 and then and and just 20 minutes and but we lost against a good a good Australian team. Let's give them credit. So, uh so I think I think he'll we'll be upset about that. And we want to actually going to win the next four games we

46:59 play. That's my view of this and this how I would I would think as a as a Springboks coach. >> Well, it's going to be interesting to see what Rassie chooses and and that's what the next time you'll see us. We're

47:09 going to be off for a couple of weeks. Of course, the UFC takes precedent now. We'll be watching a bit of that. Uh four wins for the South African teams on the opening round. Four losses for Irish teams as well. So, I had to get that in

47:20 as well. Uh but uh we'll be back when Rassie names a squad for that November tour. Uh until then, enjoy it and uh leave your comments below. Uh if you haven't already, hit the subscribe button. It helps us as well, but we're

47:33 building this channel and give us a thumbs up if you enjoyed this this this uh episode as well. It's never nice when the Springboks lose, but we found some positives. So hopefully you found them as well. Thanks guys for watching guys.

47:44 Thanks for joining us. Enjoy the time off till Russ. Cheers. >> Cheers. Cheers guys. >> Thanks guys. Right. >> When there's tough to be done, you keep moving.

47:55 driving endless hours with just your thoughts to [music] keep you company. And along that journey, you'll have a silent partner. One that gets to work without complaining or hesitating.

48:11 Because when there's tough to be done, >> is it a Bucky? >> No, it's a Hilux. There's the new generation Hilux >> Talking Boks.