Why Losing Baltimore Would Haunt New Zealand for Years

0:02 Talking Boks. Probably driven by Toyota. >> When there's tough to be done, there's the new generation Hilux. >> Welcome back. It's Talking Boks probably driven by Toyota. I'm Brendon now with

0:15 me as always as Nick Mallett and Gavin Rich. Guys, it feels a bit weird because the Box and the All Blacks are in America. It feels like a lot ended in in in on Saturday in Soweto. But

0:28 there's still a fourth test to play for the the All Blacks can still technically draw the series. The Box certainly have the the bragging rights and Nick, let's start with the the team selection. While I'm saying all that,

0:40 the the message from Rassie is certainly not the same. The message from Rassie is he's as you put it there in a in a text message going full metal jacket. He wants to win this game. >> I I think

0:51 >> [laughter] >> I think you know it's it's a strange feeling. You know, yeah, we're in South Africa. We've had this absolutely fabulous test series. You know, there's been there's been

1:02 you know, a little bit of stuff off the field, but mainly on the field we've seen a clash of styles that has has been just fabulous. You know, the the All Blacks absolute clarity about the way they're

1:15 trying to beat us and of course we know our strengths and how we managed to put [clears throat] them under pressure. So you know, and and then also the crowd involvement, the enthusiasm, the

1:28 the way that whole of South Africa >> got right behind the Springboks over these last three weeks has been fabulous. Now we still got a test match, but but all the people who are supporting all the South Africans who

1:38 would have loved to see a fourth test match are stuck here having to look at the game at 11 at 11:00 p.m. at night. And you know, some people I've spoken to have said, you know, we we

1:49 [clears throat] will probably tape it and and turn our phones off and then watch it as a live the next morning. But it is it's it's a it's I know it's a money-making uh and and and a promotion of rugby in in

2:02 America, but and it's a money-making above all because apparently they make twice as much money in rands and and and New Zealand dollars as they did out of one of the test matches here. So any one of the

2:14 test matches double that and that's what they're getting for Baltimore. So but from a spectator's point of view and a finishing the tour point of view, you know, we're miles away from it and so

2:27 you know, it's difficult to get as engaged as we were before. We'll say this that Rassie as you know, there's been no there's been no foot off the off the off off the throat

2:39 selections here. He's gone he's said listen, this is how we beat them in test two test three. We could have beaten them in test one if we just taken our opportunities. So we could have been three-nil up now, you know, but they did

2:51 play well five tries to one. We were very very poor in our execution in that first test, but he wants it to be three-one. And and I think the All Blacks will be absolutely delighted with two all. So

3:04 there is a hell of a lot riding on this test. There is a bit of there is there are bragging rights in terms of them saying okay, you know, you won those two, but look at that you know, they'll come and say look at that the

3:16 try scoring you know, if we if we get four each in this game in Baltimore, they're going to have scored four more tries than us to four or five more tries than us over the four tests. So there's a lot there's a lot on this game

3:29 as well as mental you know, mental pressure which is something coaches always want to put on the opposition. You know, get doubt in their minds, you know, make them think how are we going to beat South

3:41 Africa? We had four opportunities. We you know, we won the first one, but then we you know, we've lost the last three and it and that World Cup quarterfinal springs to mind straight away, you know, Um, go in there feeling, you know, less

3:53 confident if we win on set on Saturday in Bal- Baltimore than if they draw this two what two all, rather. >> Yeah, okay. Look, I mean, you and I have disagreed about this. I mean, you said yesterday um, to me that nobody takes

4:06 the Freedom Cup seriously, but this is completely different. This is this is the the RGR trophy. Brenden, we went to we went to the the the the the function at Brandston where they unveiled the trophy. And I know there was beer there

4:19 and there was food and we journalists and we love that kind of thing, so we might have gone anyway. But, I mean, the whole point of that thing was the Excuse me, the whole point of >> There wasn't food.

4:29 There wasn't food. There wasn't food for you. >> You crossed the line. >> No, no, that is actually true. >> I was working, so >> No, Brenden Brenden Brenden was so to

4:37 drop lip that night because he couldn't get the biltong rolls. The biltong rolls were all And you know what, Nick? I had two. I had two biltong rolls. >> Two [clears throat]

4:47 >> the one. >> I I WAS THERE WORKING. I WAS there working, Gabs, so I was doing interviews and by the time I came out >> [laughter] >> uh, there was only beer

4:55 >> and drinking beer on the across the table with all THE GOOD THINGS. >> [laughter] >> ANYWAY, >> [clears throat] >> ANYWAY,

5:04 SO WE SO WE WENT TO THIS big trophy unveiling and they told us about how it breaks in half and, you know, it's it's held together by a magnet. And if they draw the series, then they going to to to do that one the New

5:16 Zealanders will take their half and and the South Africans will take their half. And one of the things that was really music to my ears in that function was Mark Alexander, the sorry president, stating that there wasn't going to be a

5:29 tiebreaker because there had been talk that if the if the series was drawn, then they were going to have some kind of kickoff or something, which which is ridiculous because you don't know what the result of this last game's going to

5:40 be anyway. So, so if the if the All Blacks, say, for instance, won 33-10 in this last game, um, and then it was drawn, then are they going to have a kickoff after that? That would have been ridiculous. I mean, you can just draw a

5:51 series. I mean, in 1955 we shared the series with the British Lions. A 40 series with the British Lions. It's It's It's It It does happen, but but what what what what I think it's important and

6:03 maybe the Rassie can see this as well is that I do think that this series is is going to in time become rugby's version of the cricket's the Ashes. And I think that it's going to be very important to hold onto that trophy. And I know they

6:17 haven't said this yet, but I think that we're going to get to a point where if you win the RGR trophy and say that the the the the Springboks win it on Saturday. I mean, they've got one hand on it already. They go as holders to New

6:28 Zealand in in in two years in four years time. Um, then I think that we get By the time we get there it might be like the Ashes as where the holder of the Ashes you have to beat them outright in the series

6:38 to take to take the Ashes off them, if you know what I'm saying. And I think that that's what's going to develop. I think it's going to be the South Africans are going to be known for the next four years whenever they play

6:49 New Zealand, they are the RGR holders if they win on Saturday. If they don't win on Saturday then then they're not. It's not the Freedom Cup. The Freedom Cup is played as a sort of ancillary sort of trophy that's part of the Rugby

7:01 Championship. This year there's no Rugby Championship. The RGR is the big thing and it's going to be the big thing coming forward. And I think Rassie and and the South Africans see that. Yes, they It was very important for us to

7:14 defend our territory last week and make sure that New Zealand didn't leave leave leave these shores feeling that they'd scored another sort of series win in South Africa. But I think it is also very important for the Boks to actually

7:26 win that trophy and become the first holders of the RGR trophy so that Rassie Rassie's time Rassie's era Rassie the the the Nienaber era as they call it because let's not forget that Jacques Nienaber was officially the head coach

7:40 in the British and Lions series. But you know, you you look back and you at the moment it's two World Cups. By the By next year, it might be three. It's three Rugby Championships at the moment. Um it's one Lions series, and then one

7:52 RGR series. I think that people are going to talk like that in the future that he won an RGR series. So, and I think Rassie sees that, not that it's all just about him, but he does see that. So, I think it's a a very

8:03 important game for a number of reasons on Saturday. When New Zealand left uh whenever wherever they flew out from whether it was Auckland or whatever, when they flew out on this tour, they a lot of their fans expected them to lose

8:15 the series 4-0 even from what I hear when I speak to Kiwis. So, I think if they as Nick Rutt, if they if they leave these if they leave these short, sorry, they're in Baltimore, if they leave the USA having having a

8:27 2-0 draw, I think that they'll feel that that that they got a pass mark. And on social media, I am seeing that. The one what problem I do have, which obviously you do as well, Nick, is is just having this game in America is is ludicrous. I

8:38 mentioned the Ashes the other day. They wasn't mentioned earlier [clears throat] that wasn't mentioned earlier on um in this year because there's so much money in India that maybe in future they should play one Ashes test in India. And

8:50 that got laughed out of got laughed out of court. That got laughed out of court. And so should this be laughed out of court. If we're going to have four tests, I don't have a problem with four test series. I'd love to be in in

9:01 Mbombela this week or somewhere. I'm trying to think of where I'd love to PE or Quebec. >> Durban. Durban. >> Or Or Durban or Durban, yeah, or Durban. Um

9:09 >> It's just >> Yeah, last time I was at a game in Durban, it rained, so I'm sort of sort of a bit off Durban. But yeah, it's it's you know, it would be some be somewhere

9:18 else this week for for a test, then that would be great. But but playing it in America, sorry, I mean, sometimes we're putting money first just just doesn't make sense, and it's against it's against the sort of logic of the game.

9:31 And Dr. Danie Craven would be would be turning in his grave. He used to always say money's going to bring evil to the game. Anyway, that's my that's my rant. >> Gavin, I just want to ask you to answer you there.

9:42 I agree the freedom cut means nothing and like I said to you yesterday, you misread the whole of my message because I do agree that this this in your your point it does in the long term it will make a difference. I just feel like a

9:54 lot of South Africans, I'm sure that and like we've mentioned yeah, that this fourth game should really have been in South Africa. It almost feels I'm trying to get ourselves up for it and we will obviously on Saturday night be but

10:06 it just feels like all that excitement and all that all that momentum that this tour built has just dissipated a bit. Nick, I want to bring you in something there just something something that Gavin said there which which I think is

10:16 an interesting one because New Zealand teams are are are sometimes and New Zealand fans are sometimes extremely fatalistic. Um Scott Robertson didn't have the worst record in international rugby. It's not like he he

10:28 had Alister Coetzee's record for instance. He he had a pretty decent record but but it was this end of the world for them because they used to being at number one a lot of the time. Um and Gavin said a lot of their fans

10:40 think thought they were going to lose 4-0 and Dave Rennie said yesterday in his press conference they are in a lot better shape now than when they started this tour and and I'd agree with that because he's worked with now 40-odd

10:51 players. He's he knows what he's going to take to the World Cup etc. So in that context sometimes I feel somebody said to me you yeah it should be like New Zealand are there for the taking and and and I said my answer to

11:03 them was well where have they ever where have the All Blacks ever been there for the taking? >> No. >> Our team that that tends to score a lot of points, they tend to make it very

11:11 difficult to beat them and and I just want to maybe get comment on that. New Zealanders obviously don't sometimes don't realize their team is a lot better than they believe and at this moment they are still the second best team in

11:22 the world. I think by probably well France could probably probably match them on that but I mean they're in the top three of the world and they they're really fallen out of this top three for me at least.

11:31 >> Yeah, well I I'm 100% agree with that comment. I think that I I certainly was never absolutely confident going I was probably the most confident going into the first test and that just you know got a slap a slap and

11:45 a shock when when we went down by 33 odd points to 16 that did flatter them but five tries to one I mean I I thought to myself "Geez, I didn't see that coming at all, you know." I felt I felt our strength was going to carry us through

11:59 that first test. And then no one can tell us that Cape Town was was a relaxing bloody watch. You but all these three first test was embarrassing for from my point of view. I thought geez we we're

12:12 better than this, much better. And then the next two tests I said we played well but they they also played well. They played really well and uh and they're they're lacking areas of their game that they need to improve on but geez we we

12:27 don't score tries with the ease and the grace and the skill that that they do, not even close. We we do we do you know score tries utilizing our strength, the driving mall, the scrum,

12:42 direct. I mean look at uh Esterhuizen running over Mo'unga, look at Kriel and and and Allende running over Carter. I mean it's it's it's not a it's not Kolbe-esque, you know, with beautiful steps and and and and a lovely

12:57 pass. I mean they they do that all the time. So So I don't think there's any moment where you can you can say to yourself "Okay, that after game they've given up." They never do. They don't I think they scored last in in almost

13:09 every single game if I'm not mistaken. They they they keep coming these guys and uh and under Rennie they have got clarity and they know and they know what what they're trying

13:21 to do and they they also are trying to work out where our weaknesses are, you know, and they feel they feel our weakness is in movement where our team doesn't move as well defensively as their attackers do. And we And we what

13:34 we desperately try to make hold them into set piece. So, because that we know they don't want us They don't want to stay there. They don't want to go to the dark places. They want to be out in the open and

13:43 running around. So, So, I I believe that what they have to do is to get parity in set pieces. If they can I'm not saying they ever going to dominate the Springboks cuz I don't think that's possible with our physicality and our

13:58 and our and our tradition of of of forward play. But But for us you know, the selection this weekend and I'm not sure what he's going to do, but I would I would definitely put two proper locks in there

14:12 and put Viiga as a loose forward, you know. I'd bring De Klerk back and just say to him, "Listen, you You know, concentrate on scrummaging and and don't bother about the pool passes out the back and whether how many you know, just

14:23 make sure on our scrum ball we do not concede a penalty and on their scrum ball they win the ball, but we don't go racing back like we on bloody roller skates, you know?" And And then driving mauls, we have to put six heads in

14:37 there, probably seven, you know, to stop South Africa marching down the field for 35 m. I mean, that is you you you you cannot give a team the advantage like that because it's such a psychological advantage for South Africa when we come

14:50 when we when we sort of pass through them in that way. So, if you know, if I was Rennie, I'd I'd be saying, "I've got a great back line. Doesn't matter really who I pick. I've got really skillful players. I've got good loose forwards

15:02 who are able to, you know, get in amongst the backs and and and produce the similar sort of passes, similar sort of steps. But my front five, we've got to make them concentrate on the basics of the

15:14 game and not on on how many tackles they make or how many carries they make or how many pools out the back or you know, no look passes. I mean, a prop must scrum and the lock they must hit rucks and make hundreds of tackles and carry

15:28 hard, you know? And and I don't think you can escape that by by picking a tight five that was loose forwardish in in in its makeup, you know? The props look as though they've played they could play, you

15:41 know, number six flank and uh uh the hooker runs around and carries well and and both one lock is as thin as a bean pole and the and and the other well, and the other lock is a loose forward. So, that that that's not going to do them

15:53 any good and going into a World Cup, I think they have to think about that. You know, your Holland is a is I think is is a key part of that. Get Retallick back, you know? You know, Vaea has got to compete with um you know, with another

16:04 big ball carrying flank and let's see how they go, you know? Get another big heavy number eight. You can't just have two lightweights charging around. I don't know. That's because then you might get parity in set pieces and with

16:15 parity, then they're going to be extremely dangerous. >> Gav, Nick spoke about the All Blacks. I wasn't bringing you cuz you you said before we started yeah, that you just rewatched test two and three and and it

16:27 came through how dominant the Box were physically. But like Nick does say, we don't score tries that easy. We work hard for our tries. We sometimes get direct, but we don't we don't score as easy as it seems the All Blacks score

16:39 them as well. The only two times I can remember the Box planting a knockout blow on the All Blacks is Wellington and Twickenham over there. Do you think that might come through that physicality? And what what do the Box need to to to plant

16:51 that knockout blow because they haven't really been able to do it this this series yet? >> Well, you've actually just said it. You've just said it. You used the expression knockout blow. I think Nick

17:02 in a previous podcast used the expression coup de grâce, which was was I always remember from Gerrie Coetzee's boxing fights. The boxers used to I mean, the boxing writers used to always overuse that You that phrase

17:16 meaning sort of knockout blow. And and that's really what you're talking about there, Brendon, because, you know, my wife's gone overseas. I've only got a ginger cat here. That's that's my company at the moment. He doesn't mind

17:27 if I watch rugby on TV all day. So, yesterday I did I did watch I did watch both games. And it did strike me, you know, when you're not sitting there with your heart in your mouth, and sort of like, you

17:39 know, not not knowing how the game's eventually going to turn out, that the Boks were demonstrably superior in in both in both these last tests. Even in that first half where the All Blacks were making a lot of inroads into our

17:51 defensive system, we still had that sort of physical dominance. And you know, there's that old cliche slow poison. It just felt like watching it again, and maybe also knowing the result, I don't know, but it just sort

18:03 of felt like, and let's be honest, I mean, it 7-point victory margin for the Boks in Cape Town was really for I mean, they scored a try right right towards the end. They're 2

18:13 minutes from the end or 3 minutes from the end. That that that put a false gloss on that game. I never That was a game I never thought the Boks were going to lose. I always thought the Boks were From the moment Jesse Kriel scored that

18:23 second minute try, I thought that the Boks were on top. And and then this most recent game, the All Blacks at times in that first half threatened to run us off our feet. They They were

18:33 set up to do that. They They had selected their team to do that. But if you watch that game again, really early in the game, the the Boks made some of the same errors they made in Joburg, actually. They They went into the 22.

18:45 And I I think there was a good steal from Was it Jaco in the second minute or something when the Boks Yeah, when the Boks were on attack. I mean, we could easily have ended up

18:52 scoring then, and then that might have been a completely different game. But we didn't score, and they came back. And what we've also forgotten is the disruption in the Bok backline from about minute 8 when Siya was carded

19:05 at the same time as Kolisi came off with his with his Drotske or broken jaw. You know, and and that does does cause like massive disruptions. So, so the Boks actually did well to sort of handle that period and then as the as that

19:19 second half wore on, um, the Boks were sort of becoming more and more physically into that game and then eventually it led to that that that that that penalty try which to me was like at half time I remember thinking, well, I

19:31 think the Boks probably have this because they've got that physical superiority and as Nick says, there's nothing that gives a South African team more confidence than either scoring a big mauling try or or just putting in a

19:43 big maul or otherwise, um, putting in a great big sort of effort in the scrum. So, uh, you know, I look back at the series and I sort of think to myself, well, you know, Nick says five tries to one in in Joburg, but it was a bit of a

19:55 freakish game that because if you watch that game again and and maybe I will later, but I don't really need to. I I did feel it I did feel after that game that the Springboks had rediscovered the old penchant for shooting themselves in

20:08 the foot. Um, we conspired against ourselves. I mean, we were actually like in control of that game till about the 55th minute. That that that charge down try from their lock was was was a was a turning point. So,

20:20 so whilst you say Brenden that the that the All Blacks scored try have scored a lot of tries in this in this series and I agree with you that they've been scored too easily. I've also sort of got the impression that a lot of times those

20:30 tries have been to keep them in the game. And, you know, it was almost like against that Maul B not Maul B try the who was it that scored the try in Ellis Park was it Holland or um, I think I think it was Holland

20:42 >> who charged the ball down. >> Yeah, Josh Josh Lord was off. That that try was against the run of play. The Boks had had just kicked a penalty through Cheslin Kolbe and they'd gone four points ahead and we were we felt

20:53 that now they're going to take control now. And suddenly there was that bit of sloppiness that was a charge down, um, he they got away with something that Eben Etzebeth wasn't able to get away with earlier in the game and and, you

21:05 know, I I just feel that that that if you look back at all these games, as I say, I've watched two of them yesterday. I don't know if I'm going to bother with Ellis Park because I sort of remember I've got a very clear recollection of

21:15 that. The Boks could easily be three nil up now. Yes, the All Blacks have improved and they've improved their their attacking game, but there's a huge chasm when it comes to our power game versus, you know, against

21:29 them. And I'll make this point, too, is that two years ago when Scott Robertson brought his team here to South Africa, we won very late in Ellis Park. We scored two tries, I think, in the last 10 minutes to win that game after being

21:41 behind for much of it. And in Cape Town, we only won by six points. And I don't remember our physical superiority being as marked in those two games as it is now. It's almost like we are moving We're

21:54 actually moving sort of in an upward trajectory when it comes to aspects of our forward game and our power game. And and so, whilst I I agree with you that that Dave Rennie has improved the and they've improved their their Well,

22:07 they've they've gone back to a sort of an attacking game, let's say. Whilst whilst they have been sort of like at a renaissance under under under Dave Rennie, I I still think that if we look at it like soberly, the Boks

22:18 actually might might also be sort of on an upward trajectory. I I heard the guys on Breakdown. I watched you on the the other night, Nick, on on on Breakdown, the New Zealand magazine program. And they were going on after I think Mills

22:28 and and and the guys were going on at one stage and saying that the All Blacks have got a lot more out of the series than the Boks have because I'm not sure on what basis they were saying that, whether it's because

22:39 Rennie's Rennie's used more players, I'm not sure. But I I disagree with that. I think that what Rassie's actually seen in the series is the is the value of continuity and not rotating all the time. And that when it matters, he And

22:51 you said it on a WhatsApp to us the other night, Nick, when when the he he knows how to respect each competition. And this particular competition and it's and And told in the selection now, he just wants to win this one and he's and

23:04 and and he's basically kept the same team right through. >> So yeah, Nick, I want to ask you cuz what Gavin there said said as well, do you agree with it? And and Rassie is gone now

23:14 barring Cheslin Kolbe and and maybe the only guy who's really come in from the outside was Morné from well, not from the outside from but from outside the starting 15 was Morné from the bench. He had a great great prop. He's had a great

23:26 cameo in Soweto. Um so the one thing guys I did say to Gavin the other day is that these four tests that Rassie's now played basically the same team throughout. Uh he's old guard. I think seven of them play in Japan. Um two on

23:41 the bench that still play in Japan. Very much the same team that sort of won World Cups and Lions series, etc. The guys who we at some time say are maybe on the wrong side of 30 at this moment. But the one thing it has done for us, it

23:53 has told him that if he gets to a World Cup quarterfinal uh against the All Blacks and that it's going to be and yes, to do or round of 16, quarterfinal, semifinal, final, these guys are on the wrong side of 30 as as

24:06 and I don't mean that in a bad way. They are that's their age. They can still go do a job like that cuz they've shown four weeks of this pressure that they can come through. >> Well, there's there's no there's no

24:18 Well, let's wait and see what happens in Baltimore first. If we get through this, then what you what we can then we can confidently say that that we played in a competition that I consider to be much harder than the World Cup. You know,

24:31 you're playing the second best team in the world on four consecutive Saturdays. I mean, that that is that is really hard rugby. I mean, you you we're going to qualify for the quarterfinals and we and and we and we, you know, through the

24:44 stupidity of the drawing system, we we're playing against New Zealand if they if they beat Australia in the early in the early rounds and and that is going to be a really tough game. The second one, if we get through will be

24:57 France. So, the top three teams, only one of those teams are going to get to the final. So, you know, in essence, I think Gabby also said it, that our game in the final is going to be easier than the by far than the than the quarter

25:10 final and and the semi-final on the basis of form. So, so, but we really need to be able to see that these players can go through three games because the effort they put in in that in that second test and the

25:24 third test and now in the fourth test, if we manage to win this one, we'll we'll be the equivalent of of we'll be more impressive than beating New Zealand, France, and then England or Ireland or Australia or whoever we meet

25:38 in the final because um uh you you know, because I don't I think that side of the draw is is is a great deal easier than ours. Um and that will be that will give him confidence, Rusty's confidence. But,

25:52 it's a year away, you know, and and what you know, we we often like to do this as fans and media, we like to sort of extrapolate you know, into the future on what we're seeing now and all that sort of thing.

26:04 It's a long time, a year, in a in a rugby player's life, and especially when you're 35, 36, you know, it really is a long time. So, these guys have done an extraordinary job so far. Your Etzebeths, your Kolisis, your De

26:17 Allende, pulled back. I mean, Cruel and Damian de Allende have been absolutely marvelous as well. Pieter-Steph du Toit, just extraordinary the way that they have stood up and and

26:29 performed. Um but but we have got we have got strength in depth and and that's the big that's the big um it's going to be the big question going into into next year.

26:41 Um these guys will be taken along. I'm pretty much pretty convinced Rusty wouldn't have been, you know, you know, committing so much effort to this team now

26:53 if he didn't think that they were going to be around next year and and they all want to be. So properly managed we should be able to get there and given the if we do manage to win these three in a row

27:06 you know it's going to give everyone a lot of confidence going into that final phase in the World Cup where you've got to you got to put three good ones together. Just remember I mean remember last time 1.1.1 point I mean there's you

27:17 you know you there's a lot of luck involved there. Not only it's not only well done but keepers when you 15-6 down against England and in the in in that semi-final and you knock the ball on 5 yards from your line and they've got a

27:32 tight head scrum and on the left hand side of the field I mean any single team in the world should score points from that you know and we won a penalty because Oxenham showed us something quite extraordinary. I mean that was you

27:43 know we weren't able to double up you know our performance against France was heroic and the performance against England in the first half was tepid. It was really poor. So had Rassie not put on completely changed and put the bomb

27:57 squad on you know we wouldn't have got through that. So this that hasn't been the case in these two games but I will say again Sorry Donny because I don't think they've been getting too tired because

28:08 the All Blacks haven't been challenging us physically. The All Blacks have been challenging us with movement which which we've had to get better at. But they've been trying to get the ball away from the set piece and from the from lineout

28:20 and scrum as quickly as possible. So they're not taking our legs away with their efforts and we are taking their legs away with ours. When we have the ball we put them under pressure make them we make them defend we make them

28:32 scrum we make them we make we force them to make big hits and yet they're not forcing that on us. So perhaps in that sense our older players were you know have got through these three games better because we aren't facing a France

28:48 or we're not facing a physical England, you know, which and they who play differently. >> Yeah, well, I just speaking to next point about World Cup is a year away. And when you've got like

29:00 guys who are in their in their 30s, you never know when suddenly you're going to go over the I remember I don't know if you guys remember a wing it was a Transvaal wing called Leon Kirkham who was who was super quick.

29:13 And he came down to play club rugby in Durban and he played for College Rovers towards the end of his career. And I remember chatting to him after some club game at College Rovers. And he told me about how at one year he was running

29:25 onto the ball and like he could get you know that they would kick the ball ahead and and he would know exactly when he could get there and he would get it before the corner flag and grab it and go over to score. And he then said he

29:35 said then suddenly just out of nowhere that ball was just going into touch because there was no ways he could get there. So, you never know when when when when a player is going to go over the hill. There's not not everybody's like a

29:47 Deion Sorry? >> [laughter] >> Blame the floor. Blame the floor, Steve. >> Yeah, you never know you never know when when when you're going to go over the

29:57 over the hill. And and and Rassie is is aware of that and that's why I'm going to be very interesting interested and we going to be I'm throwing a head now to something we going to discuss when it comes along.

30:08 I'm going to be interested to see what Rassie's selections are going to be for the remainder of the Nations Championship. I know I know he's going to want to go there to win, but I've got a feeling that we going to see a lot

30:19 more rotation then and we going to see cuz I think he probably is going to end the series regretting that there might be players on the fringes that he wants to look at and see them in the sort of like a in the pressure of a of a of a

30:33 game against the All Blacks. But the next best thing the next best thing at the moment because I think you guys will agree with me. Everybody's going about on about the top two in the world and that these two teams are demonstrably

30:44 better than everybody else. And to some extent that's true if you look at the world rankings, but when France go to New Zealand, they go there with an understrength team. So, that distorts it a bit. So, I

30:54 I think I think there's a top three. So, Rassie's brave enough to go in against France in a Friday night game at in Paris and say to the guys, "Listen, I want to see how you guys deal with this kind of pressure playing at the Stade de

31:09 France against a French team that's always going to be in a vengeful mood now when they play South Africa after what happened in 2023. And maybe leave some of the old stages at home like, you know, and and Mark Keohane and

31:22 who who's basically the owner of the Sharks will hate me saying this, but maybe there's some value in Eben Etzebeth not playing so much during the club season cuz cuz he's played out of the Sharks. He's He's played out of the

31:34 Sharks. So, maybe somebody should say to Mark Keohane, "Listen, carry on paying him the money, but you know, for the national let the guys take the night off. Take take the winter off. Let's let's

31:44 let's not forget Take what? Take Take what? Did I mean it's actually quite an odd thing because Jake White sometimes critical of Rassie's um policy of rotation and selection. I mean Jake White came up with a master stroke in

31:58 2006 when he went to the South African Rugby Board and he said, "Listen, I'm sending a second string over to a team overseas." He only retained John Smith from memory from his first choice team. They went over there. He got into

32:11 into trouble because they got they they got badly beaten by Ireland. Um and then they lost the second test to a test to England and he was called home to explain himself, but by the end of that series he had guys that were suddenly

32:23 coming through that won him the last test and won it quite convincingly. You remember CJ van der Linde scoring that try just before halftime that completely changed the game. I think that was when Butch James suddenly started to to

32:35 himself as a as a possible fly-half for the following year's World Cup. Um You know, so so I'm not So what I'm saying is that this this is an opportunity possibly for Rassie to do what Jake did in 2006, which Jake has

32:48 obviously forgotten. And he's also forgotten that he sent he sent a very understrength team just before the Tri Nations to the Tri Nations the following year so they could be saved for the for the World Cup. But

32:58 there is value in in in doing that and it's brave to do that, but we can afford to do it probably more now more now than Jake could back then because I don't think there was the same depth in the South African game then as there is now.

33:11 There's so much depth in the South African game now that that that Rassie can actually send I'm not saying a second string team. I don't know what a second string squad is when it comes to the box, but certainly get certainly

33:22 rest some key players and I'm going to be interested to see if he does that at the end of the year. >> Now, we also we we also been mentioning that he hasn't had a chance to see too many players, but I think Ethan Hooker

33:33 is one who he's absolutely got a stamp of approval on and and the same with Morné Steyn coming back. I mean Morné Steyn coming on he he was just magnificent in those last 30 or 20 whatever he got just

33:47 defensively just so involved and his kicking game was excellent. He had the one little knock on but you can excuse him that I mean that was he you know, it wasn't a bad delivery from the lock. It just his head

33:59 came up because I think he had a loose forward running short or it's you know, matter of being hasn't running short outside him and he wanted to make sure of the pass. But but he's got a start because of that

34:11 and you know, I think we've seen that we've had a good chance to see Sacha both at 10 and 15 not because he was necessarily selected there but because of circumstances and injuries. So we've seen Kitson you know, not Kitson. What

34:25 am I talking about? Esterhuizen I beg your pardon. I'm reading Kitson's book at the moment. That's why I I said that and but Esterhuizen coming and and playing on the flank. And you know, winning the turnover at the end of the

34:36 one game and the the counter rack with him and Cameron Hanekom. And there I mentioned another Cameron Hanekom who had a really nice uh, you know, nice as did Paul de Villiers. So, you know, all these guys have had an opportunity. Our

34:49 two front rows are not quite the same. I don't think that our our our bench front row um, is quite as good as Lowe and and Ox and Chesslyn Kolbe. But those are are the best in the world in the in each of

35:02 their positions. So, you know, it's it's it's not easy to to be better than them. But we certainly have got uh, a front row that's as good as anyone else in the world coming off the bench. And we haven't seen Akker van der Merwe and

35:17 Mostert yet. And so, the lock situation will only get better um, with Lood playing more. Uh, and uh, you know, I think we're just in such a good good place at the moment thanks to the

35:30 the the changes that were made in the in the Nations Cup early on in the year. The alignment camps that we've had. He's set a target on this as being his primary importance this year, Rassie. And he's going to follow that through

35:42 right right into the last game. We thought there were going to be changes in the last game. But far from it, he's actually just gone with the with the strongest team possible in his mind to beat the All Blacks. And given you're

35:55 right, I think probably that Nations Cup away will be an opportunity to see whether um, some players that he thinks might be in the mix for pushing for places in starting lineup. Let's see how they go against the France. I mean, that

36:10 that there's no it would Yeah, it is a tougher cuz I think New Zealand at Eden Eden Park is probably tougher. But playing um, at the Stade de France against a French team that is still bitter about getting knocked out of

36:22 their World Cup is a hell of a test. And and and our players managed it well last year um, it's playing with 14 men. Have I got the right year? Gav, you tell me. I think we've got it we've got it a red card. And

36:35 and and he'll be fascinated I think I will, too, to see whether a sort of mixed team. Not I don't believe that we're going to put a B team or whatever it is but but a nicely mixed up team without

36:47 just the old guys. I think that'll be it'll be it'll serve a a strong it'll serve purpose in looking ahead at the World Cup and guys who can step up

37:02 into the places of blokes who've done it already, you know. So, we don't have to we don't have to test a Pieter-Steph du Toit and Kolisi. Damian Willemse and Damian

37:13 April. We don't have to test a Marx Ox and Nche. They've done it all before. But perhaps in case there's an injury, we might have to test another youngster. >> Yeah, just on on that I'm going to come to you now. You can get the first ball

37:24 of this over for for the next quick single there. But >> Is it a wall single? I'm already calling I'm already calling for the run, Brenden.

37:33 >> [laughter] >> Are you >> Keep us back. >> keep him as well as balance, eh? >> Yeah, the keeper can take it. I'm I'm almost

37:40 at the non-striker's end already. Anyway, carry on. >> Anyway, I'm just giving what Nick said. I mean, obviously between now and the Nations Championship, there is a game in Australia and we'll we'll obviously talk

37:51 in more detail when we get to that. But Rassie did say on Monday that guys like Handre Pollard will play there. Akker van der Merwe probably will play there. Interesting one to us though, which

38:02 which I think we should mention here is that we all thought Cobus Wiese would be in in the in the in the squad in America and probably get a game against Australia. But he's at home now in in South Africa. So, him, Boan Venter,

38:14 Cornal Hendricks, there's a couple of those guys and a couple of guys with injuries like Ben Jason Dixon's got concussion. You know, like that, but certainly that Australia game almost feels like that'll

38:25 be the the way he gets his team together for that that not just the France game, but Ireland as well the next week and then whatever that last weekend dishes up because it's going to be interesting because the

38:36 All Blacks could quite easily sweep Well, England could give them some some some opposition, but they could quite easily sweep that and get get into the final of that Nations Championship ahead of the Boks as well.

38:48 >> Well, it all all depends on how on Rassie's mind is it whether he gets swept up with sort of Nations Championship sort of fever when you get closer to the time. But, you know, that the Kurt-Lee Arendse was an interesting

38:57 one because I felt a bit embarrassed earlier this week. I I was going through Rob Wagner actually, um, former Stormers, um, CEO who still does a bit of work behind the scenes there, sent me a message wanting to know which guys had

39:08 been left behind. And when Rassie spoke at the press conference, uh, on Satur- on Saturday night, he'd mentioned a couple of names, but then he'd also said that there was somebody that he'd forgotten. And I'd sort of

39:21 assumed that that person he'd forgotten wasn't Kurt-Lee Arendse because he's impressed me in the games he's played played for the Boks this year. So, on Monday morn- on Sunday morning when we were chatting, um, I actually was saying

39:31 that I thought maybe cuz at that stage myself and Nick and you thought that Rassie might change up his team quite considerably for this last game on the basis of wanting to just have a fresher team and maybe look at a few extra

39:43 angles. I mean, I mean, we mentioned Damian Willemse who played it playing it inside center which which can still happen by the way because the the way this team's constituted, you know, Sacha can go to fullback.

39:53 Yeah, Manie can come. It's actually got a look The 23 that's playing on Saturday's got a lot of depth to it. But, um, yeah, I was a bit embarrassed because we'd spent quite a lot of time talking about Kurt-Lee Arendse and

40:02 apparently he's not there. Well, that's what I've read. Uh, so, obviously he was the guy that Rassie had forgotten at the press conference. So, um, yeah, uh, I I what I just can't remember the other

40:11 angle to your question, Brenden. Was it >> No, well, no, just saying just saying that that that game against Australia almost going to serve the team selection. They'll probably be be the the first chance we get to see the idea

40:23 of what he's going to play against France and Ireland. >> Okay, so so I think I think that the game the knowing Rassie like we do, um, I think he's obviously going to have an experimental team against Australia. But

40:34 to the degree that it will be an experimental may depend on what happens in Baltimore. Because the one thing that we do do know about Rassie is that he doesn't like to follow up with a

40:46 you know, with another defeat. I mean, we have we don't lose consecutive tests. So, and and Australia, look, I mean, I haven't watched a lot of them, but you know, they're under a new coach and Les Kiss,

40:55 so they're they're an unknown quantity. But what I have seen of them, they were easily dealing with with with Argentina in one of those late night games we we watched. I think it was after the Cape Town test. Um, so so they can be quite

41:08 difficult. And and we know that Aussies are quite cocky when it comes to play against us as well. So, um, and they get very cocky if they win. So, um, and and we're playing the World Cup in Australia. So, so, you know, there's a

41:19 lot on that game still. So, but I think I think I think Rassie will will play a lot of guys in that game. Um, it's going to be interesting though, because I think what he's learned is the value of continuity and and you know, the fact

41:33 that the that they hadn't played since the 4th of July, um, probably had a big role to play in the defeat to the All Blacks on the 22nd of August. I mean, that's 1 month and 18 days later. And the guys that will play

41:45 in if it's a completely new team wouldn't have played for the Boks since Well, some of them would have played against Argentina on the I think it was the 8th of August. Others wouldn't have played since they

41:56 played Wales in Durban or Scotland in Loftus, which was way back in July, the 11th and 18th of July, respectively. So, so so that's going to be interesting, but we sort of like jumping the gun now. I I want to see the Boks win the the the

42:08 the the the Baltimore game and win the become the first holders of the RGR trophy and the first winners of rugby's version of the ashes. Yeah. >> Did you have anything to that?

42:20 >> No, no. I just I like the analogy of the of the ashes. I think I think you know, South Africa New Zealand the greatest the greatest rivalry um the rugby's greatest rivalry. I think is a can can in time have the historical impact that

42:36 Lions Tours do and the ashes do does. I think I think it's a great it's just a great innovation. I know we're adding more to the players uh to the to the players um diaries or whatever you call our poor Springboks

42:51 play the whole year round, but we will come they will come a time when we have a global season, you know, once TV once television contracts have run out and they have proper discussions. I you know, I can see I can see um you know,

43:04 the the the world coming together and giving at least a 2-month break at at the same time for for all international players. So, um you this this will have a place. It's sort of around about the same time that

43:16 we would be entertaining Well, this is actually funny enough when we were when we would be playing the rugby championships, isn't it? I think you know, it's usually August September. So, um you know, I'm I'm not sure how it'll

43:28 fit in, but presumably around about the same time as a Lions Tour, you know, this and it's a it's something to look forward to it's so much because because we are so similar South Africans to not in the way we play the game, but we love

43:41 the game. The support and the of the of the All Blacks is palpable by their by their nation. They absolutely adore their team and and they're so proud of their team and being number one in the world when

43:54 they have been number one. And it's absolutely the same in South Africa. It's been a a nation builder, you know, second to none and has pulled us together, has made us feel proud of our country and our players and where we sit

44:08 in the world. You know, just makes South Africa feel a better place and I know that it does for the New Zealanders when they're at the top. And so if we if we can remain one and two you know, four years apart,

44:20 tours like this are are going to be mouth-watering. They are so so They they're just it's it's it's worth looking forward to, isn't it? >> So what we thought we'd do because it's Baltimore and because it's such a new

44:32 unique thing to play a game in USA, we thought we'd talk a bit about nostalgia about fourth tests as well and just at the end of the this this podcast. I just I want to start off with something that

44:43 we had in the second test, the whole debate around the the the adding flights over the the stadium. The only thing I want to say about that cuz we don't want to get into that, is that one of the New Zealand writers,

44:56 Jamie Wall, had quite a funny post where he he put a photo of Eden Park in '81 and said, "What are you all going on about? This is this wasn't even the lowest aircraft over the stadium with the All Blacks and the Springboks."

45:06 Which I found quite funny. And following on from that, in that same tour, people that that remember the history of it will know that the Springboks went to the USA after that '81 tour. And very bizarrely played in

45:19 front of zero fans there because what happened is they were so worried about the anti-apartheid protesters at the time that the FBI moved the game forward a day and the kickoff time forward to try and, you know, not get the let the

45:32 protesters come out there. And and the Springboks won that game, but apparently it wasn't much of a game from those who were there that that I've spoken to. Boxes back in the USA again, so there's a bit of irony there. And Gav, I mean

45:43 that these these fourth tests tend up to have their own stories. I mean you've got one or two of your own there. >> Well, just just on that on that USA game, I mean none of us ever saw it cuz it was never televised or anything. And

45:54 if you speak to the guys who covered that tour like Dan Retief, he'll tell you that they were sitting in a bar somewhere and somebody came because they're waiting for this game to happen. Um obviously they're there to cover the

46:03 game and uh I think somebody came and oh and said the game's been played already. >> [laughter] >> They're there to They're there to cover the rugby game that they never got to see. So, I mean, those were weird times

46:15 and I I I bumped into into a Kiwi. In fact, you'll remember Brenden a a Kiwi the other night. So, I can't remember his name, but he's he's played provincial rugby in New Zealand and he came out here in the early '70s and as

46:28 like New Zealanders often do, he ended up meeting a woman here and marrying her and he never returned to New Zealand. Um except when he went back to his his his his sister's wedding in 1981 and he said in South Africa the

46:44 whole sort of like extra stuff around that New Zealand tour wasn't that covered by by the local media. And he and he went he went over there and he went to his sister's wedding and he was shocked when somebody said, "Well,

46:54 you're going to go and watch the the the the tour games." And he said he hadn't really thought about it, but I suppose I will. And apparently there was this huge division in the family about whether he should go or not and he he didn't

47:05 understand the the complexities because the South African media and we're talking back in the apartheid era, the South African media was sort of prevented from from giving full sort of like disclosure on what was going on.

47:16 So, so so that was thing, but but he told me an interesting story because the big thing in a fourth test that that I remember was the 1976 series. That was played over four tests, not like this one with in four consecutive weeks.

47:30 There were four tests and each one was four four not apart. Just like the 1980 series against the Lions, each test was four four four games apart. I mean, was two weeks apart, but in those days remember they would have been playing

47:41 Northern Transvaal or or or Western Province in between. So, it was almost like an extra test in those days. But um he told me about because that that fourth test and I still remember that fourth test quite well of the 1976

47:55 series, the Box won by one point. I think it was 15-14 and I can vividly remember Springbok fly half, which would have been Gerald Bosch, kicking the ball No, sorry, I'm talking absolute rubbish. So,

48:05 the All Blacks kicking the ball kicking the ball through and it looked like they had a clear run to the line and one of the South African backs grabbed an All Black and basically it should have been a penalty try. And there was this huge

48:17 furore in in New Zealand. I remember I always remember Morné du Plessis points for some reason, maybe because I was at young impressionable age and he was interviewed on South African television the night after the game on the Sunday

48:29 night and I remember him saying he said, "Sure, we may have been lucky, but then I've played in games where the opposition were lucky." Which is true. I mean, swings and roundabouts. But the rage in New Zealand was sort of

48:40 untenable and this chap at Pirates that I met last week, I mean, he I think he must have been a scrum half cuz he looked like a scrum half. Um but he told me the story about he knew he knew the a lot of a lot of the All Black players

48:52 and he knew the All Black coaches because he played provincial rugby in New Zealand. And he said he had a chat with the New Zealand coach, JJ Stewart, afterwards. And the referee in that series was a guy by the name of Gert

49:04 Bezuidenhout. I think he was a Potchefstroom schoolmaster. Um Gert Bezuidenhout refereed the last three games. The first one was refereed by Ian Gourlay in Durban. Um and and and he became very unpopular with the All

49:16 Blacks. So much so that many years later I met the former All Black um Billy Billy Bush and I said to I wanted to know what he thought of Gert Bezuidenhout and Billy Bush started shaking.

49:27 And he said, "Don't >> [laughter] >> That's a different story. But anyway, this this dude at at this this ex-scrum half, I'm assuming he's a scrum half at Pirates, told me the story about how JJ

49:39 Stewart told him. He said, "You've got to understand." He said, He And they didn't go public about this. Apparently they never mentioned it and and I'm mentioning it now because I think Gert Bezuidenhout is long dead. Apparently JJ

49:50 Stewart went into the change room or went into the referee's change room afterwards like Nick Mallett had done once or twice in his in his career when he was public sick about about about how a referee had had officiated a game. He

50:03 went into this guy's change room and he said Hennie Muller just just burst into tears and he was shaking and he was in tears and he said listen, you don't understand. You don't understand the pressure that I was under. I was under

50:16 massive pressure and we can understand it but maybe myself and Nick have more of a memory of the old apartheid regime and and how important it was for the Springboks in those days. They'd lost they'd been thumped by the Lions a

50:27 couple of years before where I think Nick will will tell us in the last test there probably was a referee who who felt like national pride had to come to the fore but um this poor guy apparently was was in

50:38 tears and the All Blacks never went public about that but he basically I can imagine the pressure. Imagine having a South African referee in a game like that a series the Boks had to win because there was a lot that went on

50:50 that year. Remember of nations boycotted the Montreal Olympics that year because of the New Zealand tour to South Africa. So it was very important for South Africa standing as on the on the national in the world to win that

51:02 series. So that that I will remember that was a very interesting story to me. >> You know the 1974 Lions just laid waste to South Africa when they came and had this brilliant I mean again it was in the apartheid era again.

51:15 There was a lot of controversy about them touring and South Africa you know felt having won in 1970 against the All Blacks that we were you know genuinely in our minds the best rugby team in the

51:29 world and suddenly the British Lions had won in 71 I think it was in New Zealand with Barry John and that that fabulous team of um well I could go through the whole the whole the whole side but they had

51:43 probably eight or nine Welshman who would play in a world 15 at that time, Mervyn Davies and Gareth Edwards and Phil Bennett and JPR Williams and and they were just a absolutely extraordinary team.

51:55 >> [clears throat] >> And we'd never seen rugby played like that. I mean, they just took us apart. There was a game in Pretoria where I think they won by 28 points to seven or I can't remember, but it was a just a

52:05 absolute hammering. And [snorts] that was when we, you know, we picked a number eight to play scrum-half. Only other guy who's done that is me, ironically for the for the Italian team

52:17 when I had no scrum-halves available and I said to I said to my my flanker who had 50 caps, I said, "Have you ever played in the backs?" He said, "I played scrum-half at under 15." And my Mario, what is his surname? Um

52:31 Uh I'll get it now. And he and he said as far and it was a one of the most embarrassing games of our life was we we, you know, he had to play scrum-half against England at Twickenham. The only

52:41 time, well, they were twice. Once against South Africa, I lost with Italy. We lost by 50 points and at Twickenham that day we lost by 50 points. I took him off at half-time. His first pass of the game, Bergamasco, my my

52:56 he his first pass of the game not only went over our fly-half, it went over our full-back. I mean, it's hard to do. He threw this pass that went 30 m behind our players and and the England wing just ran forward, picked it up and

53:09 scored, you know? So, that wasn't a great start to the game. Anyway, I'll go back to say South African selectors did that with Harry Viljoen. They picked him at scrum-half ahead of Roy McCallum. And and it was I think in the third test in

53:21 Pretoria and we thought they were doing the 99 call and we said we going to we going to respond to that. And not only did they beat us again by over 20 points, but they but they beat us up physically. I mean, they they they just

53:32 didn't take a backward step at all. So, it was humiliating. We went into it was like a national crisis. I remember only thing ever written about in the papers was how are the Springboks going to get off the floor and manage to

53:46 and manage to at least win one of these games and uh and not go to try and stop the Lions from going through this unbeaten. And and and you know, there's no question that we cheated. That our referee that day gave

54:00 the award of a try to South Africa when Fergus Slattery dying day will say that he held the ball up. It was in his lap and it no way near the ground. And um and and and the Springboks were awarded a try that what that that they shouldn't

54:12 have. And it wasn't for the win. It was just a draw the game. So, they were unbeaten, but at least we could come off with a bit of uh with not so much egg on our face faces. And uh it was a time, the '70s,

54:24 you know, that mid-'70s, a dreadful time in South Africa because of isolation, because of apartheid, because of the sort of um all the sort of wrong type of nationalism, you know, it was the arrogant feeling that you know, the

54:39 world is missing us rather than you know, we were missing out on what the world was doing. And uh and and you know, once you have your own referee, I can completely understand um um that that that the chap has had

54:53 not breaking into tears. I mean, that the pressure put on that player on that referee who's a South African referee um not to allow us to be humiliated in our at home was so powerful that um you know, that they they they couldn't help

55:08 themselves really but to but to referee in our favor. And I think wasn't it wasn't it Donny Craven who said um you know, he said uh you you know, we we understand our tours to New Zealand. You will cheat when we play

55:21 you over there and when you come over here, our refs will cheat as well. So, you're not He was the sort of he just said, you know, it's it's not surprising. That's human nature.

55:32 >> Uh I just I just all I can add to that is I mean, I I I the guys just before we started recording, uh my my my wife has surname is Besuidenhout. I was having dinner the other night with Morné Steyn and

55:43 he also's got his own podcast. Uh and and I was mentioned that I don't know what the story was, but I mentioned it as soon as I mentioned the word Besuidenhout, he sort of almost he got so emotional and he said, "Is she

55:53 related to Carel Besuidenhout?" And it just it just it just shows you it just shows you how what that name means to the New Zealanders as well. Of course, there was the the the I also bring up the Cavaliers test, which is

56:06 not really official test in New Zealand is will probably give me a hit me in the comments with that. But they also did it was the only test they did the haka at Ellis Park. There's so much history between these two sides and it just

56:17 almost makes guys it always almost makes Dave Rennie's winging uh a bit a bit strange because if you you think of what we've dealt with the off-field stuff this tour compared to what happened in the past, you know, it's

56:30 it's rather ridiculous. >> But Brendon, even in that even in that even in that Cavaliers in that Cavaliers series, um when we did have a we did have a a neutral referee and if from memory it

56:41 was another Welsh we had Clive Norling in 1981 and I think it was it was Clive Rowlands who was the referee in that '86 thing. Nick, you would have probably played in that series if you hadn't gone to France then. I think you I think you

56:52 gave the South African selectors a two-zip and and then South Africa in '85. >> Yeah, [laughter] yeah. It was because they had an Okay, just so people know I was picked

57:02 for the Barbarians to play the Springboks and we and we beat them at Newlands and I I had the entire Newlands supporters were supporting ironically the Barbarians against against the Springboks.

57:13 And unfortunately, when we won the game, I pointed to the scoreboard and indicated my displeasure at not being in the Springbok side. So, I was quickly on the plane to France. >> Yeah, and I remember I remember that

57:25 well. I watched that game and I was at Varsity in Grahamstown and I I remember that and I remember thinking to myself because number eight, okay, you weren't the Springbok number eight in that game, but I think if in '85 you you

57:37 you must you would have been very close cuz the All Black tour of course was cancelled. Um but the Springbok number eight of course Tommy Bedford and and Vainona Carson were also um sort of known to be

57:47 sort of con- con- controversial. Um but but I was just going to say that that that that that final test of of the '86 Cavaliers tour was also one where, you know, there was a lot of bleating of the refereeing afterwards and that was a

58:00 neutral referee. And I remember Andy Haden in particular was very upset about it. I remember the the veteran lock from New Zealand and and they they were So so so so refereeing refereeing controversy has has continued even even in the age

58:14 post um neutral referee since since neutral I mean if you think of Clive Norling, you speak to Vainona Carson's players who played in that '81 series, they will still they will have the same reaction to Clive Norling as Billy Bush

58:26 had when I mentioned his name um at the same night. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Not only that, we can we can touch on this series. I mean if you get a person

58:36 like Angus Gardner refereeing the second test and then you see Niki uh you know doing the next one, it was um you know it was completely different. They were refereeing an area of the game completely differently. So it's not as

58:50 though it's gone away. You can have as you thought you know you can have four people involved and all of them neutral, but we still are going to be talking about the decision-making of the of the of the refereeing team because of the

59:01 complications of the game. >> Well, on that note I mean just it's it's amazing it's amazing how Angus Gardner's refereeing performance stands out compared to the other two refs in these three tests. Uh but on that Cole Dixon's

59:13 refereeing on Saturday so we're hoping he's going to have a better game. And guys I think we'll leave it there cuz we probably carry on talking and and telling stories for another couple of hours if we carried on yeah, but we've

59:22 got to end it somewhere and we'll be back after the game on Baltimore. We'll probably do a little bit later on Sunday morning when we record because it's just such a late night game. So, look out for it on Sunday afternoon somewhere.

59:34 And And yeah, thanks thanks for joining me again, guys, and and enjoy the game. It's going to be an interesting one. I hope we don't have like the same we have with the sevens where you have a bunch of American commentators. Well, I think

59:44 SuperSport have sent their commentators over for the game. So, hopefully we have some familiar voices there and not the Americans trying to call rugby. We'll leave it there. If you haven't already, please hit the subscribe button

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